@steviek Thanks for that. I'm not really looking for recognition - I'd rather have some understanding of how this works so I can better optimize my system ... or suggestions as to things we might try to make the latency better and (more important) less variable.
@peter-ostry I've done a deep-dive into latency to understand and improve my rig. I did this particular test looking for the source of something that happened to me on a gig on Saturday ... while doing a series of fast runs (in an awesome duet jam with a drummer), what I thought was my last run on the Sylphyo was followed by another run coming out of my rig. Big surprise to me ... and likely an extreme case of latency (like maybe 1 second?)
do you feel that the jitter of 1-12 ms affects your playing?
It's the jitter, but on a larger scale ...
In general, latency on the various setups I use is inconsistent - sometimes it's "pretty darn good" and sometimes its "barely usable". It seems to vary unpredictably at different times with the same rig setup. Subjectively, the variation seems to be much more than 12 msec - like maybe 50 msec? I've never played with a CV setup direct to a synth (latency in nanoseconds, people say), but I've gotten pretty sensitive to changes in latency - especially unpredictable ones.
Wondering now if the Radio interface and Link could be the issue. Does the Link get into "states" where it is backed up or bogged down? Maybe it has to do with the WiFi environment it is running in?? Would a Link Reset help (have not really explored this)???
and you tried everything you can.
I think there are many more things to try ... a change in DAW (I have some some quick tests with Reaper, and get different results ... but at a different time, not side-by-side with Cantabile), a change in host, audio interface, USB configuration, etc etc.
However, I am on the road now (playing out 3-4 times a week for the last month and next two months) ... and don't have all the tools to do this testing. Also, I keep changing rig configurations every time I play depending on the needs (and setup time available), so I'm introducing a lot of variability. Feels like I'm around the Gemini VIII stage of the Moon program.
I am hoping that the Aodyo folks such as @join might shed some light on this, and shortcut my hours and hours of trying to track this down ...
I would hate to revert to playing with a wire attached to my Sylphyo ...
I just tried removing the Hub and sending the wired Sylphyo and the Link directly into two USB ports on my laptop.
Latency was still variable (1 to 12 msec), but there was less modification of the Link's MIDI as compared with the direct MIDI from the Sylphyo.
It does look like the Link is not simply producing a copy of the MIDI coming out of the Sylphyo, but composing its own MIDI stream from ?maybe? transmitted sensor data?
It also may be that config changes on the Sylphyo (e.g. changing Breath Rate) may not completely change the behavior of the Link ... but power-cycling the Link does seem to fix that.
While doing latency tests of MIDI produced by my Sylpyo over different routes (Direct vs Link) I found some perplexing behavior ...
The "Direct" route was set up with a wire from the Sylphyo to a USB Hub into my laptop running Cantabile.
The "Link" route used measured simultaneously using a Link paired to the Sylphyo and wired from the USB Power Supply (USB Mini-B) port to the same Hub into my laptop running Cantabile.
... Note-off events also seem to arrive earlier over the Link route than the MIDI route.
This random jitter was not affected by the setting of MIDI Mapping / Velocity (Dynamic vs 127) nor MIDI Mapping / Breath / Breath Rate (I tried High (500Hz) through Low (125 Hz)).
Doing a full reset on the Sylphyo did not seem to affect the latency.
However, power-cycling the Link did seem to improve the latency noticeably.
Can anyone possibly shed any light on these pecular findings??
All measured at a sample rate of 44.1 KHz. All tests done 10 or 20 times:
Velocity = Dynamic / Breath Rate = High
Link MIDI behind Direct MIDI: 88-441 Samples (2.00 to 10.00 msec)
Velocity = 127 / Breath Rate = High
Link MIDI behind Direct MIDI: 353-441 Samples (8.00 to 10.00 msec)
Velocity = 127 / Breath Rate = Medium
Link MIDI behind Direct MIDI: 44-485 Samples (1.00 to 11.00 msec)
Velocity = 127 / Breath Rate = Low
Link MIDI behind Direct MIDI: 309-529 Samples (7.01 to 12.00 msec)
Velocity = 127 / Breath Rate = Low (After power-cycle on the Link)
Link MIDI behind Direct MIDI: 133-265 Samples (3.02 to 6.01 msec)
I am wondering if anyone has looked into the suggestion of @vincent (earlier in this thread) that
it was not moisture as such, the problem, but salt one.
I have had one situation where I started getting erratic notes. I swabbed down my fingers and all the finger pads on the Sylphyo with a slightly damp cloth. It worked immediately and completely to resolve the erratic behavior. However, since it was only a single test, I have not reported it before.
In other cases of erratic notes - they only happen when I first turn on the Sylphyo and I usually just "wiggle my fingers" for maybe 5-10 seconds and the erratic notes disappear and never return during play.
Would love to hear if other have experimented with this ... as @vincent points out, erratic notes could be a real show-stopper ...
@steviek I've contacted one of the very active makers of Native American flutes, and he has looked into the superhydrophobic products that are available .... in particular ...
https://nationalpolymer.com/hydrophobic-coatings/
and
https://www.neverwet.com/
His has not pursued them because of the (severe) risks involved in applying those coatings. Here is the text of his reply ... From Jon Norris (Jon Norris Music and Arts):
----
I actually looked into Neverwet when it first came out because they had a viral video about it. Apparently the stuff -- at least at the time -- was incredibly toxic, and it had to be reapplied from time to time.
I looked into hydrophobic and hydrophilic plastics as well, and they're permanent, but they're a bit of a nightmare to apply as you can't sand them and can't get any glue or finish on them other than on the attached side.
If there was something permanent and not deadly and fairly easy to apply, I'd use it in a heartbeat as it would almost entirely prevent wet-out. I just haven't found anything like that yet, so I use CA glue on the block and flue to make it virtually plastic, then apply RainX, which does help a good bit.
----
@laurent_aodyo said in Low volume on Sylphyo link headphone jack:
Phones output rather than in the LineOut output
So the LineOut output seems to operate around -19 to -14 dBV (see this Related Post).
Could anyone say what the levels are on the Phone port?
Thanks @peter-ostry ... good to know it's on my end ... it's driving me crazzzy ...
When I switch Roll Control from putting out CC #76 to CC #5, I get no CC output. When I revert back to the CC#76 setting, it resume function. The path is Sylphyo => Link => Cantabile (which has a MIDI monitor).
Is there some restriction on on CC#5 output? I realize it is for Portamento Time, so it's odd for using for roll. But Matt Traum reported that it initiates growl on his Turbo VL70-m patches, and I wanted to check it out ...
@support_aodyo Can you provide the impedances on the input and output audio channels?
Just released the Chill Nite album from this concert – free for streaming and download at ClintGoss.Bandcamp.com.
I played the first five tracks live over a sparse nature soundscape. I played the last three tracks live, supported by the recorded music of my mentor, David Darling, pianist Alexander Nakarada, and the drone sounds of a particular species of “drumming fish”.
Virtual versions of real-world instruments include Native American flutes, clarinet, oboe, cello, mandolin, tubular bells, chimes, Armenian duduk, bansuri, and silver flute. I also played virtual-only instruments: Heaven Bells, Respiro (Desert Wind), EVI-NER, Marble, and Matt Traum’s IndiaFlute and Beauty.
YouTube sampler video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71RUnNvvTIQ
Full album can be streamed and downloaded at no cost: https://ClintGoss.Bandcamp.com/
Nice jitter analysis! I'm new to all this latency stuff, but bending my brain around it.
My Sylphyo needed a reset after all the hundreds of settting changes, so I decided to review my entire Sylphyo config and (now that I understand things a lot better) made some fundamental changes.
My feeling is that my prior testing is highly dependent on my prior settings. I'll basically need to re-test with the new settings (shown below).
Two interesting techniques I've stumbled on:
Humming into the flute is a great way to see how a sound module behaves at rapid-fire breath pressure changes and/or lots of note-on/note-off pairs per sec.
Playing into speakers and changing your distance from those speakers. At one msec per foot, I got to experience the sound/feel of adding another 20msec of latency. Works great with a dry sound. Great ear training for latency.
>>> Setting Changes
Here are the mods I've made in my setup, with some rationale. These changes have made, for me, a substantial improvement in playability and latency. My full setup is listed below.
MIDI Mapping / Breath / Breath rate: Low (125 Hz) ==> High (500 Hz)
After all my testing (rather than real playing) it turns out that Low (125 Hz) simply doesn't work on my VL70-m. Not usable. Don't know exactly why, but after exercising the VL70-m, XpressO, and Respiro, High (500 Hz) is the winner.
Max (1 kHz) overloads the VL70-m.
MIDI Mapping / Breath / Delay notes if needed: On ==> Off
Turned this off on general principle. I can see the results in the MIDI stream, but have not (yet) heard any real-world results from this setting.
Note that the "syndrome" described below (in Note-off delay) does NOT seem to be affected by whether this setting is ON or OFF.
MIDI Mapping / Velocity: Dynamic, 20ms, 127 ==> 1, ---, ---
To eliminate the 20ms delay in determining the dynamic velocity. The VL70-m and XpressO seem OK with this.
MIDI Mapping / Note-off delay: 10ms ==> 1ms
Lowered in a general bid to improve latency. I see the change in the MIDI stream, but cannot detect a real-world difference in Respiro or the VL70-m. Setting this value too high (like 60ms) induces a syndrome where, occasionally during extremely fast legato runs with Respiro, sound will come to an end.
It looks like a MIDI sequencing issue - there is no pending Note On even though Breath Controller data is still flowing.
Breath / Curve: Log ==> Linear
Change from Log to Linear produces much better response at low breath pressures. This long-standing issue (error) was born in the days when I was wrestling with "grit" from aliasing as Breath Controller values hovered around 0-1-2-3-2-3-2-1-0 levels. I had applied the Log curve, thinking it was something line an exponential curve, when actually the Log increases its output quickly from low breath pressures.
Breath / Filtering: On ==> Off
Based on the description, this should have been off all-along. Interesting to note that Pedro Eustache [PE] had this set ON in his May 2019 settings.
Keys / Reaction time: 20ms ==> 1ms
A good test is whether intermediate notes are heard when doing a trill involving multiple fingers. On NativeFlute, trilling between <ooo|xoo and <xxo|xoo is a good test. If there are intermediate transient fingerings of <oxo|xoo, then an octave-up "pop" will be heard in addition to the two intended trill pitch. However, this is an extreme case. In practice, a trill between <xxx|xxx and <xxx|xoo is more representative of real play, and an accidental transient note of <xxx|xxo is hardly noticable (if at all).
In tests on 12/1/2021, using Respiro and the <ooo|xoo and <xxo|xoo trill, I got frequent pops at 1ms, occasional pops at 10ms, and almost no pops at 15 ms. However, I am chosing 1ms now because of the excellent responsive play on the VL70-m in exchange for an occasional unintended transient note in oddball situations.
Keys / More Sensitive: On ==> Off
Not much info on this setting. I'm turning it off to see what happens.
>>> Full Settings
Clint's Configuration Settings for the Aodyo Sylphyo
Firmware version: 1.4.8
As of 12/01/2021
%% A non-default setting (these are the only ones that need to be changed
after a Reset).
## A setting that significantly affects the typical MIDI playability
of the instrument.
* Sound
Volume: 100% %%
Reverb: 70% %%
* MIDI Mapping
Breath: CC 2, --, -- %%
Breath rate: High (500 Hz) %% ##
...per CC: On
Delay notes if needed: Off %% ##
Velocity: 1 %% ##
Capture delay: 20ms
Max. velocity: 127 %%
Slider ctrl. CC 1
Top slider ctrl. CC 12
Btm. slider ctrl. CC 13
Elevation ctrl. CC 75
Roll ctrl. CC 76
Compass ctrl. CC 77
Key-bend ctrl. CC 78
Program change > Off, ---, ---
Note-off delay: 1ms %% ##
* Breath
Minimum: 20
Range: 600
Curve: Linear %% ##
Filtering: Off %% ##
* Keys
Fingering: NativeFlute+ %%
Octaves: 5(+2) octaves
Invert ocatves: Disabled
Left pinky: -1st: Disabled
Right pinky: +1st: Disabled
Replay same note: Disabled
Reaction time: 1ms %% ##
R.time octaves: 30ms
More sensitive: Disabled %% ##
Key-bend (BETA): PB+ %%
Key noise (BETA): Disabled
* Slider
Function: Control (latch)
Top edge: Bend -
Btm. edge: Control
Edge size: 9mm
* Movement
Shake to move: On
Shake vibrato: On
Range: 20% %%
Sensitivity: 43%
Threshold: 9%
Elevation control: On
Bidirectional: Off
Absolute: Off
Range: +-35 degrees
Roll control: On
Bidirectional: Off
Absolute: Off
Range: +-20 degrees
Compass ctrl. (BETA): On
Absolute: Off
Bidirectional: Off
Range: +-20 degrees %%
Always on: Off
----
* Base Key: A3 %%
* Output: MIDI ch. 1
----
* Invert Display: Off
* Receiver device: Connected CH 23
* LED: Off
Is Aodyo planning on being at Musikmesse Frankfurt in 2022?
We'll be in Scandinavia starting in early May and could detour to Germany before that trip ...
At the suggestion of @join, I tested how the Breath Rate setting on the Sylphyo affect the time it takes to go from the Breath Impulse to the appearance of MIDI on the Link. The setting is located in MIDI Mappings => Breath => More Options => Breath Rate.
As I expected, as I reduced the scanning frequency from Max down to Low, the delay in recieving the MIDI Note on climbed from 9.18 to 12.77 msec. However ...
When I set Breath Rate to Low - reporting a paltry 63 times per second - Latency plummeted to 7.87 msec.
Could anyone suggest why this happens? Has anyone else seen this behavior??
I did 10 tests for each case and plotted the average, the +/- standard deviation, and the min and max values:
A full listing of my other settings are in this other thread.
@join
Thank you so much for the feedback. I am new to this kind of analysis / testing, but I really want to understand how this all works to get the best control over my sound ...
Settings are provided below. Key settings I guess are:
** MIDI Mapping
Breath rate: Low (125 Hz) -- Based on the XpressO and Ingo's advice
Velocity: Dynamic
Capture delay: 20ms
** Keys
Reaction time: 20ms
Breath rate is Low / 125Hz because of the XpressO, which was choking (for a while, at least) on Medium and above.
Velocity = Dynamic because many of the VSTs I use depend on that. My VL70-m is fantastic, but I currently have a (very) hybrid rig (still in the expansion / exploration phase with my rig).
Key Feature would be a way to re-configure the Sylphyo via MIDI program changes. I could then switch settings when switching sound rendering modules or VSTs. Without that, I am really stuck with the "least common denominator" across all my sound rendering tools.
I am not sure what your term "key debounce time" is ... is it Keys / Reaction time?
I will use 15 - Cheap Tunes in the future for testing ... (that sounds the most immediate to me of the choices you suggested).
Thanks again!!
I never considered that the sound triggering mechanism might be other than MIDI. But, of course, analog synths use CV and that's a whole 'nother world ... would love to understand how this actually works on the Sylphyo!
All the settings I used for latency tests:
Clint's Configuration Settings for the Aodyo Sylphyo
Firmware version: 1.4.8
As of 11/27/2021
* Sound
Volume: 100%
Reverb: 70%
* MIDI Mapping
Breath: CC 2
...and ---
...and ---
Breath rate: Low (125 Hz) -- Based on the XpressO and Ingo's advice
...per CC: On
Delay notes if needed: On
Velocity: Dynamic
Capture delay: 20ms
Max. velocity: 127
Slider ctrl. CC 1
Top slider ctrl. CC 12
Btm. slider ctrl. CC 13
Elevation ctrl. CC 75
Roll ctrl. CC 76
Compass ctrl. CC 77
Key-bend ctrl. CC 78
Program change >
Send Bank Off
Bank (MSB) ---
Bank (LSB) ---
Note-off delay 10ms
* Breath
Minimum: 20
Range: 600
Curve: Log
Filtering: On
* Keys
Fingering: NativeFlute+
Octaves: 5(+2) octaves
Invert ocatves: Disabled
Left pinky: -1st: Disabled
Right pinky: +1st: Disabled
Replay same note: Disabled
Reaction time: 20ms
R.time octaves: 20ms (If [Reaction time] is 0ms, then this must be 0ms)
More sensitive: Enabled
Key-bend (BETA): PB+
Key noise (BETA): Disabled
* Slider
Function: Ctrl (latch)
Top edge: Bend -
Btm. edge: Ctrl.
Edge size: 9mm
* Movement
Shake to move: On
Shake vibrato: On
Range: 20%
Sensitivity: 43%
Threshold: 9%
Elevation control: On
Bidirectional: Off
Absolute: Off
Range: +-35 degrees
Roll control: On
Bidirectional: On
Absolute: Off
Range: +-20 degrees
Compass ctrl. (BETA): On
Absolute: Off
Bidirectional: Off
Range: +-20 degrees
Always on: Off
----
* Base Key: A3
* Output: MIDI ch. 1
----
* Invert Display: Off
* Receiver device: Connected CH 23
* LED: Off
I repeated my tests on the Sylphyo latency with more care and double-checking. I also did each test three times to get averages and an indication of variability. I think (hope) I've accounted for every latency-producing element in the signal chain when making final calcs.
I have interspersed ideas and thought in italics.
Caveat: I am rather new to this kind of equipment testing, and may have screwed up at any point ... independent measurement of these types of numbers would be helpful and reassuring ... Your Mileage May Vary!
General Results and Thoughts
I measured about 11 msec from the time I initiate breath into the Sylphyo till I received USB-based MIDI from the Link over the radio link. This is using the Link's {USB Power Supply} port.
If you need MIDI over USB, latency will be lower when using the {USB Power Supply} port on the Link rather than the {MIDI DIN Out} port. The difference is about 2 msec (plus the latency introduced by any DIN-to-USB conversion that is needed).
If you need MIDI-over-DIN and you have a MIDI USB-to-DIN converter that is faster than 2 msec, you will lower latency by routing the Link {USB Power Supply} => MIDI USB-to-DIN converter rather than coming straight out of the Link {MIDI DIN Out} port.
If you are using the Sylphyo's internal sounds, the Link (over the radio link) produces sound on the Line Out ports after about 18 msec. You can save about roughly 5 msec of that latency by using a wired connection to the Sylphyo headphone port rather than the Link, if that fits your situation.
Of course, from there a lot of things may get added on to the latency of the Sylphyo when rendering sound in a real-world MIDI-based system. My current rig system has a latency of (very) roughly 35 msec, from breath initiation to the analog signal is sent to the house system.
I have found no research or discussion of how long it takes to initiate sound from real-world wind instruments. It must be quite "a while" for instruments like oboes and low tones on pipe organs.
One counter-point of comparison would be to measure the latency on an analog (control voltage) - based wind controller. Matt Traum comments that "Playing the analog synth that is connected via real control voltage feels to me like the synth is IN MY MOUTH ..." (https://www.patchmanmusic.com/WindControllerFAQ.html).
Summary of the Numbers
The average net time from breath initiation to sound coming out of the Sylphyo was measured at 12.08 msec (range 9.68-14.99).
The average net time from breath initiation to sound coming out of the Link {Line Out} was measured at 17.76 msec (range 16.70-19.59).
The time delta between the beginning of sound out of the Sylphyo headphone port and the beginning of sound out of the Link {Line Out} ports was highly variable. The average was 5.68 msec, with a range of 2.00 - 8.03. If we assume that the time to render sound is the same on the Sylphyo and the Link this gives us insight into the speed (and variability) of the radio link. One thing that may affect the radio link is the dense wireless IP environment that these tests were performed in.
The average net time from breath initiation the appearance of MIDI on the Link {USB Power Supply} port was measured at 11.04 msec (range 8.59-12.50).
The average net time from breath initiation the appearance of MIDI on the Link {MIDI DIN Out} port was measured at 12.98 msec (range 11.59-14.52).
This means that, on average, the MIDI signal appears on the {MIDI DIN Out} port of the Link 1.94 msec after the {USB Power Supply} port.
The Details
Testing was done 11/26/2021. The primary host is an Intel Core i7-6600U Toshiba 2016 laptop, Win10x64.
The DAW is Cantabile 3.3694 [6Aug2021] x64.
The audio interface is a RME UCX II using the RME ASIO driver v1.212 [4May2021].
All testing done at 44.1 kHz sample rate, with a 48 sample buffer size. Note that there is an additional 32 sample buffer internally in the UCX II.
The Hub is an Atolla 7-port powered hub.
Post-processing and waveform analysis done in Reaper v6.21 [23Jan2021].
I selected the #31 - El Harrachi Phi sound on the Sylphyo for its relatively sharp attack. This sound was also used in similar testing by Peter Ostry.
I took time measurements on these points in the sequence:
The "initiation" of my breath into the Sylphyo (more on this below).
The beginning of sound out of the Sylphyo headphone port.
The beginning of sound out of the Link {Line Out} ports.
The appearance of MIDI on the Link {USB Power Supply} port.
The appearance of MIDI on the Link {MIDI DIN Out} port.
I was not able to capture the appearance of MIDI on the Link {USB Host} host port (I use a Sevilla Soft MIDI USB-USB device for these purposes. The Sevilla does not transfer USB data from the USB Host port on the Link ... not sure why ... maybe because there is no way to select the USB port on from the Link?)
I recorded my breath input using a mic at my mouth to capture the sound when I breathed into the Sylphyo. I pre-pressured my mouth using my tongue to block the air escape, and then removed my tongue to get a "puff" of air.
I could find no hard data on the transient response time of various microphones. However, based on newsgroup discussions and informative articles, I chose this small-diaphragm condenser (see, for example, https://www.quora.com/What-type-of-microphone-has-the-best-transient-response and https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/2018/8/22/do-you-ever-think-about-how-fast-a-microphone-is-and-how-that-affects-the-sound).
Based on this, I chose an Oktava MK-012A-01 small-diaphragm condenser with a cardiod capsule and no pop filter.
Measuring the "initiation" of the breath was challenging and somewhat variable. The image below shows how I made the selection. The waveforms are greatly expanded vertically, so the clipping is only in Reaper, not the original waveform.
(click for a larger image)
I chose a point (marked in this example case with a vertical bar) that seemed to represent an initial movement of air rather than the sound of my lips. Selecting the initiation points of the other audio signals and the MIDI initiation points was far easier and could be done precisely to the sample in Reaper.
All calculations were done based on the sample numbers in the audio steams.
I have previously measured the delays from these elements in the signal chain:
A/D and D/A transfers in the UCX II at 1.81 msec.
Transfers on the Atolla hub at 0.11 msec.
Conversion from DIN MIDI to USB MIDI was done with an M-Audio MIDISport 2x2 Anniversary Edition. I have measured a transfer through the hub plus the conversion of the MIDISport at 1.00 msec.
The raw time from breath initiation to the beginning of sound out of the Sylphyo headphone port was 12.08 msec (range 9.68-14.99). Both the mic that records breath initiation (on the UCX Mic 1 Input port) and the line inputs from the Sylphyo headphone port (on unbalanced stereo cables to the UCX Line 3-4 Input ports) experience the A/D conversion so they cancel. There is additional delay from the actuation of the microphone itself, but that is unknown and should be minimal. So, ...
The average net time from breath initiation to sound coming out of the Sylphyo was measured at 12.08 msec (range 9.68-14.99).
The raw time from breath initiation to the beginning of sound out of the Link {Line Out} ports was 17.76 msec (range 16.70-19.59). As with the prior example, the A/D conversions cancel out, so ...
The average net time from breath initiation to sound coming out of the Link {Line Out} was measured at 17.76 msec (range 16.70-19.59).
The raw (and net) time delta between the beginning of sound out of the Sylphyo headphone port and the beginning of sound out of the Link {Line Out} ports was highly variable. The average was 5.68 msec, with a range of 2.00 - 8.03.
There are two elements that can affect latency on these two paths: the difference in time to render sound on the Sylphyo vs. the Link, and the radio transmission to the link. If we assume that the time to render sound is the same on the Sylphyo and the Link this gives us insight into the speed (and variability) of the radio link. One thing that may affect the radio link is the dense wireless IP environment that these tests were performed in.
The raw time from breath initiation to the appearance of MIDI on the Link {USB Power Supply} port was 12.34 msec (range 10.29-14.20). The mic that records breath initiation (on the UCX Mic 1 Input port) experiences a measured delay of 1.81 msec from the A/D conversion. The Link {USB Power Supply} port was sent through the Atolla hub, adding 0.11 msec to the latency. This gives a net bias of (1.81-0.11) = 1.70 msec. So, ...
The average net time from breath initiation the appearance of MIDI on the Link {USB Power Supply} port was measured at 11.04 msec (range 8.59-12.50).
The raw time from breath initiation to the appearance of MIDI on the Link {MIDI DIN Out} port was 13.68 msec (range 12.29-15.22). The mic that records breath initiation (on the UCX Mic 1 Input port) experiences a measured delay of 1.81 msec from the A/D conversion. The Link {MIDI DIN Out} port was sent through the MIDISport unit and the Atolla hub, adding (1.00+0.11) = 1.11 msec to the latency. This gives a net bias of (1.81-1.11) = 0.70 msec. So, ...
The average net time from breath initiation the appearance of MIDI on the Link {MIDI DIN Out} port was measured at 12.98 msec (range 11.59-14.52).
I took a few hours yesterday to test specific latencies in the various rig setups I use. I was looking to compare things like Analog vs SPDIF, MIDI over DIN vs USB, USB direct vs through a Hub, etc. Also wanted to get real-world latency measures of A/D conversions in my interface, my looper (and it's own A/D conversions), and how my sound modules (XpressO and VL70-m) perform.
As part of this, I got some interesting measurements on the Sylphyo. These latencies were done by recording various audio and MIDI ports in Cantabile on a Win10x64 PC and comparing the waveforms and MIDI notes using Reaper.
I recorded both the direct output from the Sylphyo's headphone jack and the audio and MIDI output from the Link. I measured the sound produced by the Link to be 4.35 msec behind the Sylphyo sound. If the rendering engines in the Sylphyo and the Link take identical times (no way to know that), this imply that the radio link takes 4.35 msec (measurements were done with about a 2 foot distance between the Sylphyo and the Link).
It took another 7.35 msec for the Link to produce MIDI on the USB Power Supply port - i.e. Link MIDI appeared 7.35 msec after the Link had produced sound. Not sure why there is such a delay. I suspect that the MIDI appears on the DIN MIDI Out port earlier than on the USB Power Supply port (from some back calculation), but more tests would be needed.
(I now see this discussion - https://community.aodyo.com/topic/651/link-jitter-latency - and will look into re-doing these tests after re-pairing the Link and maybe switching my USB configuration)
I also attempted to measure the time from the intiation of a sharp breath input to my Aodyo Sylphyo electronic wind instrument to the production of MIDI. I used an external mic into Cantabile to capture the breath input. Of course the air has to go through the mouthpiece, into the inner chamber, hit the breath sensor, go out the Sylphyo on a radio link to the external Link box, and get turned into MIDI over USB, through a hub, and into Cantabile. I measured this at 30.32 msec.
I could not find any references that measured latency in physical instruments, but I suspect it is largely based on technique - an experienced sax player does not initiate sound by ramping up their breath - they have initial breath pressure in their mouth chamber and damp the reed with their tongue, then initiate the note by releasing their tongue (see https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/getting-the-reed-to-vibrate.7885/)
More details on other aspects of my latency testing are in my post on the Cantabile forum: https://community.cantabilesoftware.com/t/latency-testing/7245
Just posted a YouTube video that features the Sylphyo ... starting at about 8 minutes in ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXTuGfHgl8Y
@join Excellent description ... thank you so much!
I now see how the routing diagram from the Link manual works ... it was not clear to me at first.
I have done my own version, so I don't have to figure it out all over again in the future:
I hope it's correct ...
I just tried plugging a basic MIDI keyboard into the DIN Input connector.
I expected (from this post from @Laurent_AODYO last year) that the MIDI from the Keyboard would be merged with wireless output from the Sylphyo and appear on the USB channel output on the USB Power Supply port that appears in software as "Sylphyo Link". No dice.
I then plugged to MIDI keyboard via USB to the USB Host connector on the Link. Again, no data appears on the USB Power Supply port that appears in software as "Sylphyo Link".
When I try connecting my very basic MIDI Monitor (MidiView) to the Sylphyo Link, no problem - it shows data from the Sylphyo. However, I cannot connect to MIDIOUT2 or MIDIOUT3 (error: the ports are in use). The MidiView application does not show the MIDIIN2 or MIDIIN3 ports.
Could you possibly suggest what I might be doing wrong?
(My goal here is to hook up a MIDI Sustain pedal to play with the Sylphyo ... but I would like to understand the routing and merging so I can better make use of the Link in general).
Cantabile on my PC shows three input and three output ports related to the Link:
"Sylphyo Link" - which is what I use for MIDI input from the Link over the physical "USB Power Supply" Mini USB-B connector on the Link,
"MIDIIN2 (Sylphyo Link)" and "MIDIOUT2 (Sylphyo Link)" - which is what I would expect to use for the two physical MIDI DIN-5 connectors on the Link, and
"MIDIIN3 (Sylphyo Link)" and "MIDIOUT3 (Sylphyo Link)"
Would anyone know what those final two ports connect to?
My Sylphyo has finally graduated from Lockdown ...
Began 10 months ago largely clueless about the digital music realm. Last week I pulled off two one-hour solo ambient shows - “Chill Night” concerts at a retreat center in the LA area.
Sylphyo into {Laptop + XpressO + VL70-m} into {Strymon Timeline + Boss RC-505}. Used a drum pad (MPD218) into Cantabile to trigger song transitions, instrument selection, patch selection, etc. The circular setting had a gonzo sound system and was lit with a large flock of tea-light candles.
It all went recording-quality poifect.
Would never have gotten here without the support of this group and the willingness for Aodyo to accommodate the Native Flute fingerings that I have played for two decades ... Thanks All!
I've cooked up some fingering charts for the two Native American flute fingerings (NAF and NAF+ ... also called NAF Basic and NAF Extended).
They generally look like the chart below, and can all be accessed at https://www.Flutopedia.com/sylphyo_fingerings.htm
@peter-ostry I should also point out another issue: cross-fingered key bends produce no bend at all. For example, key-bending from <xox|ooo to <oox|ooo does not produce a key bend. This is critical for the Native American flute fingerings I typically play, and I am guessing is probably an issue in other fingerings.
The challenge (I'm guessing) is knowledge of the pitch of the target note of the key bend. The static default of +2 semitones needs to be replaced by a look-ahead to what pitch will result when a key-bend is initiated and carried to full-bend ...
@laurent_aodyo I would love to hear the latest on the prospects for a key bend. Bending notes is central to the physical flutes that I play (open-holed Native American flutes) and the absence is keenly missed. Like @gobarcza, I keep turning it on once in a while and then abandoning key bend an hour later.
The issues are easy to state, but I cannot imagine a strategy or programmatic method or simulate an authentic physical-world key bend:
Knowledge of what note is being bent to (the target note) so that the appropriate span of bend (1x semitone, 2x semitones, 3x ...) to select.
The avoidance of a noticeable discontinuity - a jump - in pitch when near the target note.
The lack of a sensitivity setting for key bending to avoid accidental activation.
If there is anything I can offer in the way of assistance (Guinea pig, beta tester, human sacrifice) I would be happy to sign up (uh ... maybe not the last item).
Another option might be to (optionally) generate the key bend data as a CC and allow a downstream rendering engine attempt to produce key bends. Such experiments could be done directly in Kontakt or even a VST ...
@clint This mini-discussion ... https://community.aodyo.com/topic/555/patch-change-commands ... seems to imply that the Link will accept limited config commands (patch change, volume), but not transmit them back to the Sylphyo itself.
@peter-ostry So I'm guess the Sylphyo currently does not respond to MIDI configuration messages? ... and that discussion in the Anyma Phi sub-forum was regarding preferences as to how it might be done if it were implemented??
@mothyb @Support_AODYO ... does the Sylphyo accept MIDI commands over the LINK interface to change its configuration?
That would be a big help ... I am currently fiddling with my config live during my current set and it's not bad, but not ideal. Better would be MIDI sent from Cantabile on a song change. Will the Sylphyo accept that over the LINK interface?
That would also allow more extensive alterations, such as changing breath pressure parameters between songs. That would be really be helpful but I don't currently do it (by hand) because of the complexity and the likelihood of screwing up during live performance.
(Sorry if this topic has been discussed previously ... I seem to recall some discussion about this, but cannot locate it in the forum logs)
@peter-ostry I use two of these Oboe swabs and they work well: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001M5CZR8
If I've been playing for longer than a few minutes, I will swab out some of the moisture at the top (breath end) of the bore with my pinky and a paper towel. I feel this gives me a head start on removing moisture and makes the oboe swabs more effective.
I use two swabs at once, and I let the body of the swab sit in the bore for maybe 20 seconds to absorb moisture, not just move it around.
I have tried three swabs at once, but they will not go through the bell port at the bottom.
@Gromit ... one thing to note is that the levels output by the Link may be lower than other units you might be using.
See https://community.aodyo.com/topic/806/link-output-level/6 for a description - @Peter-Ostry reports measuring them in the range of -19dBV to -14dBV.
So, you might want / need to use a microphone input (i.e. with a preamp) rather than a line level input.
@milododds There are many creative solutions for crafting Bell Port plugs! (Make sure they are removable and won't damage the plastic in the bell of the instrument)
PLA = Polylactic Acid, a common thermoplastic polymer used for filament material in 3D printing.
@milododds Thank you for all your kind words!
I should have mentioned the direct link to the Kontakt libraries are now posted on Flutopedia at https://flutopedia.com/soundlib.htm.
@peter-ostry ... Love it!
You have captured every single piece of information that is missing from my documentation. This info lives in a simple text file that I can never locate when needed ... back to the digital drawing board ... thanks for providing an excellent model!
Most folks do YouTube videos for rig rundowns ... I've only gotten as far as drawing some schematics. In case it's helpful to others ...
And I would love to see how others wire up their systems!!
An image of my "Full Rig" (with looper) rig is shown in this post: https://community.aodyo.com/topic/817/dual-link-receivers. Here is the corresponding schematic:
(sorry for the haziness, but I had to compress the image to get under the 512K size limit)
Here are schematics for the smaller setups that I usually use in small settings (Yoga sessions, etc):
Laptop-based:
XpressO based:
If anyone has a setup where they switch between two different Link receivers, I would love to hear your experience.
I have two separate systems - a home desktop-based system and a road rig (see below) - that I switch between often (sometimes many times a day). Unplugging and moving my Link is a bear. If I got a second Link, is it possible to pair to both, or have them somehow both be receiving? Or ... is there a fast pair method?
FYI, here's my current "full monty" road rig.
@friedus Thanks for the feedback! I am looking into using Decent Sampler (which is free to download) ... but I'm not sure it has all the controls (envelopes and filters) that I use in Kontakt to make these sound libraries work ...
We just posted a very basic Intro to EWIs in general and the Sylphyo in particular. It's for our main audience - Native American flute players who attend our workshops and gatherings. I hope it represents the Sylphyo well! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEEfnucCjEU
@marko The charger I received is marked as putting out 2.1 amps, but I personally (i.e. not an official answer here) don't think that a 0.5 amp charger is an issue.
In this post: https://community.aodyo.com/topic/594/charging-indicator/5 ... I measured the current draw by the Sylphyo using a convenient and inexpensive current meter. It appears to max out at 0.17 amp (170 mA), so I think it's OK.
Actually in my current rig, I am charging the Sylpyho in the stand shown in this post: https://community.aodyo.com/topic/606/floor-stand/6 ... but using a generic 1/2 amp USB charger and it works fine for me.
@peter-ostry That wonderfully clears things up ... thank you for the info!
@beneathclouds Great to know that I'm not missing something obvious, like some setting.
If you are going from the Link output into the Inst 3/4 input of the Babyface, TotalMix gives you 9dB of gain in addition to the -10dBV setting. If that does not bring it up to Nominal level, then it looks like the Link is below -19dBV (not sure I have the correct voltage math on that).
I asked the question because I'm running into a line-level mixer that has a switch on each channel for +4dBu vs -10dBV. If I set all channel volumes the same on the mixer, the various units that feed that mixer all yield roughly the same level coming out of the mixer - as long as that switch is set correctly.
However, the Link seems to output substantially lower volume, even with the switch at -10dBV (the higher-gain setting). Is the Link outputting something closer to a mic level? I would hate to have to use a preamp on just that channel.
Maybe it is because the Link is USB-powered? (although my RME Babyface is USB-powered, and it's main XLR outputs pump out a whopping +19dBu, and that unit is also driving several additional outputs as well).
Or ... is there an output level setting for the Link that I am missing?? (My Sylphyo setting for Sound => Volume is 100%).
Along the lines of Link Line In/Out Balanced? ...
What is the nominal level of the Link Output ports? ... Maybe +4dBu or -10dBV?
@clint said in Floor Stand:
Another concern is that the internal airway of my Sylphyo does not appear to be "sealed". If I block the bell port completely and breathe gently through the mouthpiece, air freely escapes ... to ?someplace?. It is not escaping from around the mouthpiece, so it must be going someplace in the body of the instrument.
I found the answer to this one: I was actually doing the test with the mouthpiece removed - I was breathing into the blue collar. In this setup, the air does escape (from under the blue collar?).
When I install the mouthpiece and close the bell port with my finger, all is tightly sealed - only a miniscule amount of air seems to escape ... barely noticable.
This issue seems to be fixed in the latest RC13.7 release (dated 7/18/2021). (I was actually using an earlier RC13.7 version dated 7/11/2021 when I had these issues).
I can now increase the Breath Rate on the Sylphyo all the way up to Max with no apparent problems.
Loving the Sylphyo + XpressO combination!
@bernard-béville I should have reported the software versions I am working with: 1.4.8 for the Sylphyo and 2.0.00rc13.7 for the XpressO. The XpressO version may have something to do with it since I think Ingo has changed a lot in the recent releases. The default setting for Breath Rate is Medium on the Sylphyo, so if you are using "default settings" then you will have that setting, I think. I did change to Low and did not notice any effect (other than curing the artifacts on the XpressO)
J'aurais dû signaler les versions logicielles avec lesquelles je travaille : 1.4.8 pour le Sylphyo et 2.0.00rc13.7 pour le XpressO. La version XpressO y est peut-être pour quelque chose car je pense qu'Ingo a beaucoup changé dans les versions récentes. Le paramètre par défaut pour Breath Rate est Medium sur le Sylphyo, donc si vous utilisez les "paramètres par défaut", vous aurez ce paramètre, je pense. J'ai changé en Low et n'ai remarqué aucun effet (autre que la guérison des artefacts sur le XpressO)
Wrestled for two days setting up an XpressO with the Sylphyo. Routing MIDI through the Link then to the XpressO via 5 pin DIN as well as USB produced bizarre artifacts, clicks, stuck notes, harmony notes, etc. Results are different for DIN and USB, but still bizarre.
The issue seems to be the volume of MIDI data or the speed of CC#2 (Breath Pressure) updates.
I changed the setting on the Sylphyo => MIDI Mapping => Breath => Breath rate from Medium (250 Hz) to Low (125 Hz) and all the issues and artifacts have vanished.
I did try the [Very low] (63 Hz) setting but that failed badly. The XpressO does not seem to recognize breath pressure changes at that low rate, and the notes hold their initial velocity without changing volume.
I am curious if there is any information on the significance of serial numbers on the Sylphyo.
Are they assigned in order? Nice to know whether a higher serial number is strictly newer than an lower number.
Are they assigned with / without gaps?
Are serial numbers beginning with AS01xxx an earlier version than AS02xxx (maybe before internal sounds??)
I have SN AS02143, ordered December 2020.
I see that EBay has current listings for AS01470 (used with Link) and AS02150 (new with Link).