Sylphyo with Ketron SD1000



  • I use Ketron SD1000 with Akai EWI, great sounds, little box but no buttons to change voices on the unit itself. It could be a perfect match with Sylphyo but ...

    I cannot change voices using Sylphyo, the first program - piano - is always selected and no change of the program or midi channel changes that. Receiver is simply connected via MIDI to Ketron SD1000 and default CC mappings are used. PC Win 10 Home.

    I can use Akai EWI 5000 to select another voice in Ketron and then switch to Sylphyo receiver, sometimes the selected voice stays, and can be used with Sylphyo, but cannot be changed from the instrument itself.

    Surprisingly also software (Anvil Studio) that I use to change banks and voices on Ketron does not work when I attach Sylphyo receiver to the computer via USB. In this case I have PC-USB-Sylphyo receiver-MIDI-Ketron connection. Somehow this receiver does not send program change information from PC to the Ketron SD1000 synth. Changing voices in software works with USB-to-MIDI converters (like Roland's UM2), but not with Sylphyo receiver. So neither program change from Sylphyo nor from PC works.
    Sylpho Bench works without problems.
    So I cannot use my favorite synth ... without it Sylpho that I have just bought is rather useless.

    Wlodzislaw



  • Hi Wlodzislaw,

    Using the SD1000 should be straightforward. We never had the chance to test this configuration yet.
    This is quite strange as we are using regulary MIDI Program Change when using hardware synth.
    If you can successfully play the Piano sound from the Sylphyo, this means that the MIDI connexion is OK. Are you using your PC Win 10 between the Sylphyo receiver and the SD1000 ? I will check the Ketron MIDI implementation chart to try to understand why this doesn't work. Is this working when using the EWI5000 instead of the Sylphyo ?



  • One more question, what Sylphyo firmware revision are you using so that we can load the same for testing purpose



  • One extra question: could you describe a bit more your setup and wiring ? PC on the way or direct standard DIN MIDI connection from the Sylphyo MIDI receiver to the SD1000 ? If you know a place where one can find the SD1000 MIDI implementation chart this could also help us to understand the problem.



  • @laurent_aodyo
    Thank you for all these questions, I also thought that this should be straightforward but for some reason it does not work.
    Sylphyo - I have just updated the firmware to 1.1 and checked it again but nothing has changed.
    MIDI connection is OK.
    I have used both direct Sylphyo-Ketron connection trying to change programs, with USB connected to power; and Sylphyo-receiver-PC, with receiver-Ketron; in this case I shoudl be able to send via the USB-receiver-KEtron link program changes, but it does not work.
    Ketron implementation:
    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/743727/Ketron-Sd1000.html?page=58
    or in the manual:
    https://www.ketron.it/images/ketron/manualiPdf/SD1000_web.pdf

    Wlodzislaw



  • I found other people having trouble to get program change working using the non-USB DIN MIDI In on the SD1000 though it worked perfectly with the SD2:
    How to test sound module on computer? (win7).
    "post by Denv12 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:51 am
    I need to try to test my Ketron SD1000 sound module because there is a problem when I connect it up via MIDI cable.

    I have 2 Ketron modules:
    The SD2 which works perfectly.
    The SD1000 which is faulty when its connected up with the same cables and Midi ports I used to connect up the SD2.Why does 1 Ketron module work properly and the other ketron module doesnt work properly."

    You should be able to select sound from Voice Bank A using program change sent by the Sylphyo (we do not send bank selection message yet, as we are trying to think about a smart way to handle such a huge bank selection possibility in a user friendly way, rather than just scrolling from 128 Prog Change with 128x128 bank to select from). Question is: does it work when you directly connect the EWI5000 MIDI OUT (DIN) to the SD1000 MIDI IN (DIN) without any PC connected ?
    If so, this would mean it is possible to get the program change from a MIDI controller to the SD1000 MIDI In working, so we should find a way to upgrade the Sylphyo firmware to make it work.
    When you say "direct Sylphyo-Ketron connection", you mean Sylphyo MIDI out receiver powered with the charger connected to the SD1000 MIDI In (with no computer) ?
    When you say "Sylphyo-receiver-PC, with receiver-Ketron" do you have the same MIDI cable from the receiver MIDI Out to the SD1000 MIDI In and the receiver powered by the PC ?
    Can you play the default piano sound in both case ?



  • Yes it works with direct connection with the EWI5000 MIDI OUT (DIN) to the SD1000 MIDI IN (DIN) without any PC connected; I have also tested SD1000 with EWI 4000s. Direct program change is fine, but I cannot change the banks from EWI without PC.

    So please find a way to upgrade the Sylphyo firmware to make it work.

    Yes, "direct Sylphyo-Ketron connection" is Sylphyo MIDI out receiver powered with the charger connected to the SD1000 MIDI In (with no computer).

    Yes, I have only one cable used in all cases, and I can play the default piano sound in both cases.

    W



  • Fine, then we will investigate next week the differences in the MIDI sent by the EWI and the Sylphyo and check what is missing for the specific use with the SD1000. And adapt the Sylphyo behavior to match the EWI behavior regarding Prog Change sending (my assumption is that the SD1000 is waiting for a bank select message before the program change message but I do not have an EWI at home - Sylphyo only).



  • Great, thank you. A combination of Sylphyo with some Ketron voices will be great, the box is really small and half of the SD1000 voices work well with EWI, including some string instruments. Meanwhile I have tested Sample Modelling Sax Brothers and it works fine.
    I have also used Korg KRONOS workstation, and everything works, including program changes.
    Also Syntronic from IK Multimedia works, I still need to reinstall SampleTank to check it.
    So it seems to be a problem specific to Ketron.

    W



  • I can also confirm that Yamaha VL70m works very well, including program changes.
    Attaching now Sylphyo receiver to Cakewalk UM-2G MIDI-USB interace that connects to the computer via USB and to the Ketron SD1000 I can use software program to change voices, but also Sylphyo changes them without problems.
    So the only problem left is direct connection to SD1000. Since this is a small unit and it can work without a computer (at least with the bank A voices) but has no buttons to change voices it would be nice to be able to use it.



  • I tried to check the behavior of the EWI but as I "only" have EWI 4000 and EWI USB which do not handle bank select message (the EWI USB even do not send any program change message), I couldn't get to any conclusion. If you could check with a MIDI monitor software what is sent by the EWI5000 when sending prog change, this could help us.
    Having the program change from the Sylphyo working with the VL70m is not really a surprise for us as this one is our favorite hardware test synth.



  • I also have EWI USB but use it with the computer.
    I do not know how to change bank using EWI 5000 directly, but below there are two changes in bank A, and one change in bank B (turned on using Anvil Studio program).

    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: AllNotesOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: PortamentoOnOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel LSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: ProgramChange chan: 1, value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider LSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127

    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: AllNotesOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: PortamentoOnOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel LSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: ProgramChange chan: 1, value: 3
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider LSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel LSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: ProgramChange chan: 1, value: 3
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider LSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: PortamentoOnOff chan: 1 value: 127

    Here I have switched to bank B using software, looks similar

    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: AllNotesOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: PortamentoOnOff chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel LSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: ProgramChange chan: 1, value: 61
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider LSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: BankSel LSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: ProgramChange chan: 1, value: 61
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 2
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 1
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider chan: 1 value: 64
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: DataSlider LSB chan: 1 value: 0
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmMSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: RegisteredParmLSB chan: 1 value: 127
    From 1(UM-2G): Chan 1: PortamentoOnOff chan: 1 value: 127

    W



  • From what you record, it seems that bank messages are sent by your software. Question remaining is whether the SD1000 is actually listening from such message coming to its DIN MIDI Input or only from the USB/MIDI interface.



  • SD1000 is attached to Roland Cakewalk UM-2 by MIDI, it does not see directly EWI.
    SD1000 has also USB input type B (small swuare, not flat), and EWI5000 has the same type socket, but such USB cables (square/square) are impossible to find, so I have never tested that.
    W



  • @wlodzislaw No progress with MIDI for Ketron? As I have mentioned running it through the computer software programs are changed without problems.
    One problem that I have is that with Yamaha blowing soft and then harder increases loudness, with Ketron if initial blow is too soft blowing harder does not increase the loudness. I am playing with different settings, logarithmic curve still seems to be the best and changing other parameters also did not solve the problem. Decreasing sound level by blowing softer works, so it is the initial attack that needs to be sufficiently strong.


  • Aodyo Instruments

    @Wlodzislaw After looking into the SD1000 manual, it looks like it should accept Program Change messages alone but it actually looks like it requires Bank Select messages to be sent along as well. I'll contact you privately to try to find a proper solution to this.

    As for your loudness problem, it is typical of synths made for keyboard-style controllers (note that the VL70m doesn't have the issue), and it can be easily solved. It looks like the SD1000 understands CC11 (Expression) correctly, so breath control is OK.

    The problem is that the velocity information sent on note onsets is translated into loudness as well, and defines a maximum loudness for the entire note.
    The solution here is to always send the maximum velocity so that only the breath can control loudness. To do so, just disable Dynamic velocity on the Sylphyo: go to the MIDI Mapping section of the settings menu, and change the Velocity setting from Dynamic to 127 (100 can be even better, as with some sounds a velocity over 100 could introduce a special attack, such as a slap on a bass sound).

    Now the Sylphyo will always send fixed velocity information, and the Ketron should work correctly.



  • @join Many thanks, it works fine. I have tested that myself with Yamaha but not with Ketron.
    I guess it would be great to have a page with recommendation for different synths.
    W



  • @wlodzislaw I have noticed that although the beta firmware does not switch Ketron SD1000 control voices when changing directly from Sylpho (ex. jumping from 1 to 72) if I then change the voice by one step (ex. 72 to 73) it works! One step at a time.



  • @wlodzislaw With new firmware setting MIDI program change to send bank info works great with Ketron! Initially I have reversed MLB/LSB, so nothing happens but now I can access all banks and voices.
    Thank you, this is very useful and allows the use of Sylphyo without computer.